Disclaimer: This is potentially controversial. I link a few other blogs and mention other people. I would ask for their permission, but then I remembered that their blogs are public and open for anybody to see. If I mentioned you and you'd rather I didn't, let me know, and I apologize.
Jill Elizabeth over at The Happiest Sad wrote a post a little while ago that I really liked called Cold Risotto, the gist of which was that adoption is sort of like a restaurant that has good days and bad. Some people got cold risotto and thus refuse to admit the restaurant could ever be good, others got great risotto and (this is my own little addition) refuse to admit the restaurant could ever be bad. There was this sort of thought in my mind that it's a preference dictated by the internal with minimal (but important) input from external circumstances. By which I mean, if placing was absolutely awful for you, it's really about you and who you are as a person, and the same for the opposite. Both sides have requisite amounts of suck, and all adoptions involve complicated relationships with family, birth fathers, social workers, and prospective adoptive parents. But if you're the kind of person who never wants to go back to the restaurant, I didn't feel external circumstances would ever trump the internal. You could have had a great family/social worker/whatever and still hate that freakin' restaurant. You could have had no support and still love the restaurant. It's all about how you feel. There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.
I stand by that, to a degree, but probably because I didn't realize how much the circumstances suck for a lot of people who end up placing. I guess I was only thinking of the people who see that pregnancy test and think: yeah, I'm gonna place for adoption. Those who didn't obviously have a very different experience with this.
I'm thinking of Myst, over at Living in the Shadows. She and I sorta butted heads when my blog started, and I lumped her in with other birthmoms who had cold risotto and didn't want to go back to the restaurant. But, I read her story recently, and that's not a restaurant that serves cold risotto, that's a restaurant that offers a great menu and then instead of bringing you food just repeatedly punches you in the face. What happened to her was criminal, no two ways about it. And if I had gone to that restaurant and gotten punched in the face, I would definitely tell everybody I know to never ever under any circumstances go to that restaurant.
Let me figure out a way to stretch this metaphor... I guess it's as if I'm a masochist. I just really really like getting punched in the face. And I hate food. So the no-food-but-lots-of-punching restaurant is the one for me. I'm ready for the pain, and I embrace it (let's forget the whole sexual aspect of sado-masochism for the time being) because it's what I WANT. Advising a masochist not to get punched in the face because you don't like getting punched in the face will just elicit annoyance. And... oh god I can't continue the metaphor so I'm just gonna step out of it. I have the absolute best external circumstances possible for my situation. My agency is wonderful, and I mean that. I will not tolerate any comments calling ALL agencies baby-grubbing money machines. 60% of the expectant parents at Spence-Chapin end up parenting, and they make that fact extremely clear to any prospective adoptive parents. They offer lifetime support to all members of the triad. They only offer open adoption, and they're serious about it. And I know that's one in a million - most agencies do in fact SUCK, and people who worked with them have the right to want to shut them down. I'd shut down IAC if I could. I also have the full support of Max Power and my family. That's something I'm trying very hard not to take for granted. So though my internal circumstances sort of suck (I'm not the stablest of people) I've been discounting how lucky I am to have the external circumstances that I do.
My experience (thus far) and Myst's don't even really deserve to be in the same category. If I could personally lock up (and maybe waterboard) every person involved in what happened to her, I'd do it. But adoption rights are part of reproductive rights. They go hand in hand with things like abortion. You can hate abortion, you can believe it is murder and denounce it and everything, but the fact is that if you outlaw it, women will do it anyway. There will be back alley doctors and poisons and coat hangers and people will die. If you do away with adoption all together as a construct, things will get worse. Instead, we should work on making sure all the experiences are like mine, and NONE of them are like Myst's (did I mention how angry it makes me?) because unplanned pregnancies happen, and I don't care what your experience says I should do - I will not parent. I should not parent. It's not going to happen. And I stand by my right to choose what I will do with my body and my offspring. That's why it's called pro-CHOICE.
Also, just to make it clear - no matter how much adoption is the right choice for me, I know it's just gonna suck really hardcore. I have braced myself for impact. I am doing everything I can to be ready for the sheer emotional distress of placement. But getting ready, understanding and accepting the pain is not the same thing as being anti-adoption, not even close. I'll eat the cold risotto, and I'll do my best not to ever go back to that restaurant myself (no more unplanned pregnancies for me, hopefully) but at the end of the day, well, I was hungry, it was the only place open, and the food might have sucked, but at least I didn't starve.
Hey, you know what? I love you.
ReplyDeleteI think you are much further along in your acceptance of what open adoption looks like than I was. I refused to accept that it could ever be bad, and it turned out to be pretty awful for me - but only in some respects and only recently. I think that knowing you're setting yourself up for a big hurt will make it easier when it comes. There really is something to preparing for the worst.
ReplyDeleteYou're so well thought out, it's a great start to what you know will be a difficult time.You're too smart to have illusions and have the wool pulled over your eyes so you can trust yourself to do the right thing, for you.Onya!
ReplyDeleteHi Lia.
ReplyDeleteThought I would check out where all the traffic had come from to my story and was highly surprised when I found out it was from here.
Anyway... I just wanted to point something out. When you mention the whole thing about if there was no adoption, what would people do. Well I have never been foolish enough to say abloish adoption and leave it at that. I recognise the need in humanity to have a system in place where children can be cared for by others outside of their family of origin. I am just saying this shouldn't be adoption and a new system could be put in its place. The essence of adoption is about adult needs. It has been since BC times, check out the Code of Hammurabi that mentions children were either adopted to care for elderly people or in other places, used to further ones political or financial career. I am not saying erase adoption and lets leave it at that. I am saying erase adoption but first have in place a system that focuses on the needs of children and NOT adults like adoption does. Rewriting a birth certificate so that it rads as if a child is born to strangers is immoral. It is a lie. Stripping a child's identity and severing ALL ties with their family of origin, as if neither ever existed to the other is plain wrong. Adoption in this way HAS to go if people want an honest approach.
Needed to point that out as I don't feel you understand where I am coming from... yet. And I feel more support for young women to keep their babies is in order. Adoption cuts the need for the saying "It takes a village to raise a child". And that is sad as it erases a whole era of families belonging to each other in the way they should.
New laws and Acts (or Bills in the States) are 'invented' by those in power all the time. There is no reason this couldn't happen.
By the way, after further contemplation of this post... I notice the poor seabass is not getting much mention and thus my point about adoption being about the ADULTS rings loud and clear. Because it is. If our babies could talk, they would tell us NOT to place and at the end of the day, regardless of pro choice or anything else, THAT IS THE ONLY VOICE YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO. I know this will piss you off but like I said in my email to you, I don't support your decision and I never will. I stand by what I say.
ReplyDeleteAnd to anyone else who wants to take me on: bring it. I have heard it all before.
I read but have never commented. I feel it is important to point out a few things re abortion and adoption.
ReplyDeleteLet me first state that I fully support access to abortion, as well as other reproductive options such as birth control. However, adoption is, quite unlike abortion, NOT a reproductive choice. Abortion, birth control, etcetera is something you choose to do or not do to your own body. Adoption is something you force on another living being after birth. Totally separate.
The second point I wanted to bring up is access to adoption. I do not consider myself anti-adoption and will indeed probably become a foster parent who adopts that way. For some children, adoption really is the best solution.
I do consider myself to be pro-family. In those countries where families and mothers have been wholeheartedly supported, such as Sweden and Australia, (domestic) adoption is practically non-existent. There is no need to do away with adoption, if you just truly support mothers and families, because the vast, vast majority of people want their children.
One last thing: Adoption may be the right choice for an individual parent or their child or the adoptive parents, but that does not in any way negate the systemic, intrinsic, and entrenched problems of the adoption industry or the legal discrimination practiced by most American states.
I have a hard time comprehending how not being able to a parent a child you love is ever good risotto--no matter how well you are treated during the adoption process or not.
ReplyDeleteAnd I second what Myst said. There's no need to abolish adoption just simplify it. If there were truly adequate rights for women and resources in place, then the only reason women would choose either adoption or abortion is because they wanted to. Not because of unpreparedness, not because of poverty, and not because of lack of support. If a woman wants to parent but surrenders because of the obstacles in her way--that's not really a choice, is it?
ReplyDeleteI advocate for true choice for women and against unnecessary separations of children from their mothers.
A few things stand out to me in this post and it's comments.
ReplyDelete"My experience (thus far) and Myst's don't even really deserve to be in the same category"
This sentence is huge, to me. Everyone seems to forget (or chooses to ignore) how unique every one of these situations is. The metaphor used in the post is an excellent one for stances on being "for and against" adoption. One's view of adoption is entirely dependent on their experience with it.
"I don't care what your experience says I should do - I will not parent. I should not parent. It's not going to happen."
This is a very strong statement and it's being totally disregarded. Lia, if this is for sure how you feel and will feel after having your baby you are doing the right thing. Make sure you continue to do the right things in selecting a family and being there for your son in whatever capacity is best for him. I have to add at this point though that I do wish you felt you were able to parent him because it seems to me, of course it's only from reading your words, that you would rock at it. Don't be too stubborn to allow yourself a change of heart, if you have one, ok? There's much to consider and it's my hope that you're allowing yourself to be counseled with an open mind and thinking about things such as "short term pain for long term gain".
To those that say it takes a village to raise a child, I agree wholeheartedly. What I have a problem with is when people insist every woman who gets pregnant and has a baby is the one best suited to raise it because of the love and the bond but dismiss that same woman's intuition about which village is best suited to raise her child.
Not every adopted person hates the fact that they were or holds a grudge against or has disdain for their biological parents. Not every person raised by their biological family would have chosen to have been, had they had the choice.
Every child has the right to be raised by people that want to raise them and in my opinion, that trumps biology. Have you never seen the effects on people who grew up in a family where they were resented and/or unwanted?
Here's the thing, Lia... even the people who got the "good" risotto, don't want to go back for more. The risotto may taste good to some people - but they still leave the restaurant hungry. And you never get the risotto you ordered, you always get someone else's risotto. Sometimes, you think you got the "good" risotto, then you have the worst indigestion because while it may have tasted just fine, it was filled with toxins. But then it's too late, you already ate it and you can't un-eat it.
ReplyDeleteDid you check the children's menu at the restaurant? Everything on the children's menu comes with one of those punches in the face. The adults always order for the children, but they get whatever the restaurant has left in the kitchen. The children are stuck eating what someone else told them to eat, no matter how much they don't like it. The children would rather eat what mommy and daddy are eating, all children are like that. But they don't get to. Not at this restaurant or ever again.
And to your other metaphor: You can have on a 5-point harness, airbags completely surrounding you, crumple zones and every safety measure possible... but you've prepared for impact, you haven't prepared for the nuclear explosion.
If you've never lost a parent, you can't possibly know the pain. Losing friends isn't anything like it. If you've never lost a child, you cannot possibly be prepared for it. And I know, I know... you think I'm one of those people who thinks I know more than you do or is bitter or is imposing my beliefs on you - - but I assure you, you are not prepared for going home without your infant in your arms, with an empty belly that doesn't wiggle and bounce around anymore - you are not prepared to go home utterly empty. And there's no words I can give you to prepare yourself either.
I would also like to touch, quickly, upon adoption "rights" as reproductive rights. Once upon a time, there wasn't modern Western concept of adoption. And I would argue that you are conforming to the social structure that tells you that adoption is a great thing to do. You are kowtowing to an elitist doctrine that reduces you to a production mechanism to supply product to an elite class. In other words, you've been indoctrinated by your society. (That's not finger-pointing or accusatory - it's completely free of emotion or opinion on adoption... it's the effect of society. And most of us walk around unquestioning of our own social structure)
Ultimately, you are going to do whatever you are going to do. You and your child have to live with your decision. I hope you make the best one - whatever that may be.
The problem, is that its not just one restaurant... it's the industry. This means, that once you place your child for adoption, whether you look back and realized you were coerced or lied to, there is no assistance. It's done, final. In the event of a restaurant, it's like being poisoned, having your child die (but not) and then the restaurant is still serving the same food that has continued to poison and kill child after child after child (but not). It is continuously going to the FDA, the USDA, and all other organizations that says everything is under control, and having them do nothing. And, it's not just one restaurant, but all restaurants that serve this same ingredient / food, etc, and ALL of these restaurants are having people be poisoned and killed. Because it's systemic, and there is no regulation.
ReplyDeletePromised an open adoption? There is no legal enforceability to open adoption. No matter how much the adoptive parents pretend to like you (including going on tv to say so prior to placement) after the adoption is finalized, they can go back on everything and not even tell your child is adopted.
This doesn't mean that everyone who eats at the restaurant gets poisoned or child becomes sick and dies (or not) because see, these ingredients are in certain entrees, certain meals, and it switches around, so that you are betting yours and your child's life at picking the right or wrong meal. Is it really worth it to take that chance? When you could just make dinner at home?
These people are trained to manipulate you, to raise your fears and concerns, minimize your negative perceptions of adoption, because they make tens of thousands of dollars on placing your child with a prospective adoptive couple. Your services are free, because they don't represent you.
I had the same feeling that Myst did, reading your post. Your son is absent. I know you feel you can't connect with him, you love him abstractly, it's hellaciously difficult to contemplate him as a part of you, but he *is* also a huge part of this unfolding story. I know it's painful to think about, but your son deserves consideration. As Myst says, please listen to what adoptees say. Yes, there are those who have had great experiences, but you can't predict how your son will fare, even if he has the best adoptive parents ever, and you in his life on a regular basis. Really. I have to say that I was impressed that Campbell suggested that you think again about parenting. It's scary, it's not in your plan, but you WOULD be great at it.
ReplyDeleteTo the Anonymous who pointed out that the children who eat at the metaphorical restaurant get punched in the face EVERY TIME: Amen. The pain and losses are lived every day. We have few, if any, choices, and our futures depend too greatly on the kindness of strangers.
Adoption is a choice, but it's not a reproductive choice. Rather, it's a choice to parent or not to parent. The abortion-adoption dichotomy is a falsehood, perpetuated by the system to say that all those babies whose parents don't want to parent would be aborted. It's simply not held up by data from states with open records.
http://heatherrainbow.wordpress.com/2010/08/10/is-adoption-still-the-greatest-even-when-they-close-you-off-completely/
ReplyDeleteJust one more thing. I would take being punched in the face repeatedly every day over losing my child. Being punched in the face is NOTHING in comparison to having one's perfectly moulded heart shattered into so many pieces it can never be fixed and having the most important piece stolen. The thing is, it wasn't just my experience but the experience of thousands... and still is.
ReplyDeleteFollowing your analogy:
ReplyDeleteI went to this restaurant because I had been fed risotto as a young child. I didn't like it at first, but then got used to it. I was told the risotto was the very best ever, and since the risotto at home was good, I figured this restaurant had to be good as well.
But I felt *obligated* to go to this restaurant and to eat what was placed in front of me. Everyone told me that this risotto was so excellent, and besides, I had already eaten risotto before, so what was the big deal?
And I told myself I was just being ungrateful and a selfish person for not appreciating that I was even able to be served in the first place.
So now I've decided to leave the restaurant, but unfortunately, because I went in the first place, I cannot erase that first experience at the restaurant, ever.
It wasn't a bad restaurant.
But now that I've left, it's not something I can just erase. I will have always felt obligated to enter the restaurant and eat the risotto.
I'm impressed by how many people are still trying to sway your opinion using their own experiences by commenting on a post about how everyone's experience is different. Irony anyone?
ReplyDelete@I Am. Amen brother. The irony is lost on most of these people. Whatever they feel they believe it's universal. They simply can't allow anyone to have different feelings or perspectives.
ReplyDeleteThe statement, "I don't care what your experience says I should do - I will not parent. I should not parent. It's not going to happen" is not the statement of someone who is coming undone. It is an honest, sober assessment of one's situation and inclinations. It should be respected.
If the blogger were so uninterested in dialogue, why would she have visited and linked to a blog of someone with vastly different experience? And irony in adoption is lost on me. I don't find it a particularly humorous thing. Perhaps we are not as dumb and insensitive as you presumptuously suggest. We can care without agreeing to every word written.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous: Maybe she shouldn't parent because she feels she can't. Maybe her only support is in abusive biological parents. Maybe she doesn't have a boyfriend or the boyfriend is now an ex. Who knows.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't mean that having her child be adopted is going to be any less of a hell for her. As much as she says she'll be prepared, she HASN'T lost her child yet.
If you are ok eating cold risotto every day of your life from now on, then good for you because that is truly the flaw in your metaphor.
ReplyDeleteThis decision means at least a small portion of cold nasty risotto every day for the rest of your life.
This relinquishing your kid thing is not a one time occurrence. It is something you will have to live with every day.
You will still get ice cream, hot fudge, cookies, steak. You will even still get warm risotto when you want it.
But that cold risotto, it is always going to be there.
A little bit of not so good, every single day.
You sure you are ready for that?
MeiLing, it will be very difficult. All surrender is accompanied by loss and grief lasting for a not insignificant time. However, 'hell' might not be someone else's lifetime description of what the experience is. 'Hell' is not an objective summation of a universal experience......it is your word. Acceptance of your own decision ie that you made the only decision possible at the time could also affect how you feel about it. It's really up to Lia to own her own feelings.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous: It is ultimately up to her. But she opened up the conversation. She's also allowing comments, which means, she hasn't closed herself off from our opinions and experiences. As long as she hasn't placed or signed her rights away, she has the opportunity to make her decision for herself, an INFORMED decision, which includes others who have lost a child to adoption. This doesn't say what will happen to her, because she has not signed away her rights. We simply are hear letting her know what DID happen to us, and what happens to us everyday. Can I get an AMEN for that.
ReplyDeleteTo the anonymous who made the comment regarding the blogger's words: "I don't care what your experience says I should do - I will not parent. I should not parent. It's not going to happen," I reply this to you:
ReplyDeleteYou cannot have it both ways. Either they are the words of someone who has come undone OR OR OR they are an honest, sober assessment. Did I mention: YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.
This is the very manipulation of a young woman in crisis that is exemplary of the practices of the very profitable adoption industry. Twisting the fear-filled words of a pregnant woman to validate the greed and lust of infertile people and those who profit from the misery of adoption. Well played - but you got caught this time.
Lia, just bear in mind the situation you are in right now is temporary. Adoption is forever. It's a permanent solution to a temporary situation.
Lia, I have only read a little of your blog, do not know your whole story, but all I can say is that it is your life and your choice, and you certainly are hearing all sides. I am a mother who gave up a child, but I am not you and you are not me, so I cannot tell you what to do, or what your life will be like after surrender. I hope it will be much better than mine was over 40 years ago.
ReplyDeleteYour child is not really a person to you yet, which is normal. You may feel differently once he is born and you see him, or you may not, but the final decision can only really be made after the birth. You seem committed to the choice to surrender, but remember you can change your mind. You can also keep on the course you have set. There is no wrong way, only what is right for you.
You probably know if you are going for an open adoption that such agreements are not enforceable. Many open adoptions work as planned, but some do not. Just be aware of that.
You will be "dependent on the kindness of strangers." Hopefully they will be strangers that become friends.
No matter what you choose to do, it will impact the rest of your life. Neither surrender nor raising a child as a young single mother is easy, and there is no one right choice for everyone. Whatever your choice is, there will be difficulty, and if you surrender there will be grief. Even in an open adoption.
But if you really look at the options and what you do is your own free choice, you will have a much easier time than many of us did. This may be your only child, and it may be your choice not to have more children. Or you may chose to have children in the future, but that is not guaranteed, Another thing to be aware of.
You are in a hard place now, and I feel for you.I hope whatever you chose to do will result in a good life for both yourself and your son. There is no perfect solution for all, just our individual and broken lives we try our best to live with courage and grace.
I read this post but have been staying away for a while.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I will point out is that you used "I" many times.
"I just really really like getting punched in the face [...] I'm ready for the pain, and I embrace it (let's forget the whole sexual aspect of sado-masochism for the time being) because it's what I WANT [and skipping ahead] I know it's just gonna suck really hardcore. I have braced myself for impact. I am doing everything I can to be ready for the sheer emotional distress of placement."
Well, I guess at this point all you can do is hope babycakes has your emotional fortitude.
['Hell' is not an objective summation of a universal experience......it is your word.]
ReplyDeleteYes.
However, I would like to point out that describing the majority of relinquishing mothers' opinions & emotions... have a striking parallel resemblance of patterns, even if only anecdotes.
Lia could very well end up in that minority. But it is still a decision which has not come to fruition yet, and by that I simply mean it hasn't occurred.
There is a lot of research about babies who lose their mothers. There is a lot of research about adult adoptees who were given up as infants. There is a lot of research about the neurological effects of adoption once the mother has given birth.
None of that is absolute fact, of course, since every person is different. But there are similar patterns – similar reactions, similar emotions among those who have done the same experience – and often, in the world of adoption and relinquishment, they run along parallel lines. Maybe Lia won’t feel any pain regarding the adoption of her future child. Maybe Lia won’t feel grief. Maybe she’ll be in the lucky minority.
I do want to point out however: if the number of symptoms (grief, anger, sadness, regret) are all similar among research of women who have relinquished their babies, then the likelihood of that happening to a future mother who relinquishes her child is more apt to occur with the mother than the minority who don’t feel a thing.
This might not be the right analogy but: let’s say you want to have surgery to improve your eyesight. You don’t know who to go to, and you’re told by some friends that Doctor A is an awesome doctor; they claim they’ve heard his research has proven his eyesight procedures work with 98% success rates. They have the sources to prove it: they know of some of their friends who went to see him and it all worked out okay. They have better eyesight and it was for such a good, affordable price.
Accordingly to your friends, he’s newly established and just starting taking in patients this week. You ask if there are any risks, and they say, “Well, there probably are, and I heard mentions about temporary blindness or having deteriorating vision, but so far the rates have been good, and you’ll never know unless you try, right? You do want that nice new vision, don’t you?”
So you consider about going to him; you really think this guy might be a good choice based on your friends’ references, and hell, maybe they’re right. You won’t know until you do it, will you?
But then you start hearing reports that this guy doesn’t run a professional company, and he’s got a degree in the theoretical concept. During the next few weeks, you do some research, and find out that people feel they’ve been ripped out because his technology is only temporarily helping their vision and in the long run they don’t feel it was worth all the money they paid.
So far, 90% of his patients have come out displeased with the money they’ve put forth and the overall result, while the remaining 10% claim to much clearer vision and well, everyone is different so of course there will be some people who aren’t going to be happy either way, so maybe they should’ve just gone to a different doctor. Maybe the 90% just misinterpreted the way things were done and want something to whine about to make the doctor look bad, you know?
Who are you going to go with – the 90%, who report similar symptoms, even if merely anecdotal - or the 10%?
Or do you think it’s still wise to go with the 10%, because after all, you might be the odd one out?
I know the doctor analogy isn't all that reliable, actually, given the context, but I did want to point out that I'm far more willing to bet a mother will grieve her lost child than give it up, feel regret for the rest of her life, and still insist it was the best thing.
If it was the "best thing", it wouldn't have needed to happen to begin with, no?
Mei Ling: There is a lot of self-serving "research" that comes to the conclusions the persons conducting the survey wanted, on both sides of the adoption debate, pro and anti. There is very little unbiased scientific research on the real effects of surrender and adoption. The numbers you quote are suspiciously high and from a self-selected group within the adoption reform community.
ReplyDeleteAs to the emotional issues, sometimes people have to make choices that cause them grief but are the lesser evil given the circumstances they are in. Some divorces are that way. Leaving a place you love to take the only job you can get in a distant and strange city can be that way. So can surrendering a child for adoption. For some women, and for some adoptees, it is the better choice, but that does not mean it is without grief.
"There is a lot of self-serving "research" that comes to the conclusions the persons conducting the survey wanted, on both sides of the adoption debate, pro and anti."
ReplyDeleteTrue, very true.
What about scientific research done by professionals for infant/child development, pregnant, and the mother while the child is in-utero?
Hi Lia,
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to say that I think you're being very brave and strong. I commend your decision and I really hope that you have a support system. I can't believe all of these negative comments that I read on here. You don't deserve that at all. I live in Brooklyn too and if you need a friend, I'm here for you. I've never been pregnant and I have no idea what this feels like for you but I am just so disgusted by all the negative comments that I see here and I wanted to offer my support. Stay Strong!
Mei Ling,
ReplyDeleteFrom what I have read here, Lia is taking good care of herself and doing everything she should to have a healthy baby. I do not know of any real research that proves that being surrendered for adoption is in and of itself perceived as harmful by the infant if they go immediately to a loving adoptive parent. Yes, it is difficult to be adopted, once the child understands that they were surrendered by their first mother. That has to hurt no matter what. But it is something many adoptees learn to cope with and have decent lives.
Being raised by a mother who did not want to raise you is no picnic either, and it seems that Lia really does not want to raise this child. Sometimes there is no easy or painless answer.
@Anonymous
ReplyDeleteAnd yet there are many studies that demonstrate newborn infants can pick out their mother's voice and scent. Newborns will do what they can to move towards what is familiar to them. If any woman's scent and any woman's voice were one and the same to them, then being adopted might be just wonderful and value free for any infant. Why do people take precautions to send the right infant home from the hospital with the right family?
I work as a Labor and Delivery RN, and I know from research how being held skin-to-skin and breastfed by a mother regulates an newborn infant's core temperature and blood sugar. I see the benefits in my little patients on a daily basis.
Loss sucks, especially if it affects you on a preverbal, emotional level. There is plenty of research from NICUs that shows neonates who are exposed to physical trauma rewire part of their limbic system, the emotional center. Since they can't speak, physical and emotional trauma are one and the same.
You can believe that adoption only causes children pain when they are told about it, but I disagree with you very strongly.
There has been significant research done in Psychology, which might not be a hard enough science for you, that shows many adoptees to have developmental issues. Researchers often look to the Eriksonian model of developmental crises to show the deficits that adoptees feel. Perhaps you don't believe in this model, either, but have you read any of the work by Dr. David Brodzinky or Dr. Marshall Schechter?
I would argue that you're not an adoptee.
I read this blog and struggle with it on a daily basis. I know that there are no easy answers. I know that a child who is not wanted by its mother would have problems if raised by that mother. I know that Lia is not taking her decision lightly. I know some adoptees love being adopted and never have problems with it. I know many others, however, who do. Despite having the best of everything, despite having loving first parents and adoptive parents.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, but it upsets me greatly when adoption is described as painful but something that a "good" adoptee will overcome. "Be grateful," we are told our entire lives.
Lia will do what Lia must, but there is absolutely another person in this equation. One who doesn't yet have a voice.
I was not telling anyone to be grateful, least of all adoptees. No one has to be grateful they were surrendered and adopted. It is a hard thing to deal with, but sometimes is the lesser evil given the particular circumstances.
ReplyDeleteNo, I am not an adoptee, I am a mother who surrendered a child who ended up in a dysfunctional adoptive home. I am also friends with some very good adoptive parents, and many adult adoptees with all kinds of experience. I do not think my adoption experience, which was lousy, or my son's, defines all adoption experience. I think we are all individual and can think and speak for ourselves, and that individual experiences vary a lot; they are not all cookie-cutter alike.
Yes, I have read Schecter, Brodzinsky, all the rest, and I know many adoptees have developmental and emotional problems. My theory, as valid as any, is that most of these problems stem from the secrecy, lies, and lack of openness in adoption, not from separation at birth from the biological mother. The problems of adoptees are real and well documented and I would never dismiss that. What I take issue with is the cause.
The fact that newborns can recognize their mother by smell or sound does not mean that they remember this, cannot adjust to another care giver, or that they suffer permanent grief from birth because of being raised by another mother. There is no research that proves that. I do not believe that Primal Wound is a proven theory.
If you believe that the only problem with adoption is secrecy, lies, lack of openness, then open adoption should be a win-win solution. If the child always knows and always has access to the first family, then everything is okay? Maybe the first mother feels regret from time to time, and sometimes the adoptee hurts a little, but everything is fine in the end. What an optimistic, hopeful model. It's just more love for everyone.
ReplyDeleteToo bad that's not my lived experience, nor that of many of the adoptees I know. I guess in your mind, then, I was simply unlucky, although I had a pretty great adoptive experience with parents who love me unconditionally.
Since newborns and children cannot communicate until they have verbal skills, and yet the brain is undergoing a great deal of development and emotional growth during those first years, I don't know what kind of research would convince you that infants do feel a loss. If they can't express it in words (which is impossible for the first year), you are unconvinced that there is trauma? Nothing that happens to a child in its first year matters, because they can't remember it?
When infants are hospitalized, we have ways to evaluate their behavior to assess for pain and discomfort. We know they cannot speak to us. Infants are unable to separate the emotional from the physical. We do know that important growth happens in the brain during those early months. Trauma can cause the limbic system to rewire. I guess you don't believe that either, even when it's been shown to happen in infants who have undergone painful procedures, etc.
I am not saying that an infant cannot bond to someone else, simply that I believe it plausible that the absence of something familiar can cause an infant discomfort. It's not so much that there is "memory" in the way that we think of it in adults, but that the memory is stored in the wiring of the brain and in the body.
As I said, we'll have to agree to disagree.
I am glad that you and your son have made the best of the situation that you created.
@anon: so the research conducted by people with no investment in the results on the separation trauma suffered by infants from their mothers is wrong is it? Right. You just refuse to see the truth because you don't want to see how it affects adopted persons because then it would mean you did wrong. So all that research into the effects of seperation trauma of other infants NOT adopted from their mother is hocus pocus too then right? Which means I shouldn't have been diagnosed with separation trauma by professionals? Yes because YOU ar ethe expert. I get it. Hold the books, studies and research everyone because we have a person who is not willing to see the evidence. Adoptees, you don't suffer from being separated from your mother... that is all bogus according to anon.. because somehow she holds all the knowledge of the human brain...
ReplyDelete*Rolling eyes* I have heard this crap before anon. But it does not explain the trauma suffered by those adoptees from great adoptive homes who were open and didn't have secrets and their adopted children turned adults STILL suffered. Yes, you can try to explain away all the research with a wave of your hand but at the end of the day all that does is highlight what you are trying to run from. It has been shown that persons who were separated from their mothers for a myriad of reasons including premature babies, sick babies, removed for a short while for whatever reason suffer from that separation trauma. I wasn't adopted and yet on reading the Primal Wound I could understand much of the separation trauma research because I had been separated for sometime as a newborn due to illness. And at 18 when all those issues came to a head and my mother went and spoke to my psychologist and told her my history, I received the diagnosis of separation trauma. And all the research out there fit. This was before I knew anything about adoption. Also your claim descredits the DECADES of research by scientists about how the newborn KNOWS their mother by smell, sound etc. And these studies were conducted by scientists who are removed from the adoption world and situation.
Yes anon, claim as much as you like. Science does actually disprove you and you can argue about this until you are blue in the face but its like being caught red handed stabbing someone and then trying to say oh no, my hand just slipped. Its science. Go argue with those who proved it.
And Katharine: kudos to you for trying to explain this to those who WANT to stay blind. I know adoptees suffer, I have seen this first hand in my own child let alone countless others. Not to mention the awful open adoption situations out there which do just as much harm in a completely different way.
ReplyDeleteYes, Lia will do as Lia wants... but I agree with you... there is another person who has a voice and they have been largely ignored.
@ anon, yes your theory is as valid as any others. I know just how you feel. I know exactly what it is like to be a semi-legal cop on the streets of San Francisco because I have seen Dirty Harry movies.
ReplyDeleteWhat I don't know, is how I feel about being adopted or how that has impacted me. I have had you point that out to me before. I am biased by all my life experience.
And yes of course adoption is like risotto. I can't think of anything that more clearly illuminates adoption than having a bad meal at a restaurant, I mean really, is anything worse than that? Adoption is like so many things, different geometric shapes, a gift. It is magic. It certainly is not what it is, being left with strangers and trying to deal with that for the rest of one's life.
You also get the magic of being told how you feel and how you are lucky to be alive for the rest of your life. Oh, I am starting to feel all warm and fuzzy again.
Nevertheless, Lia does not want her baby. For some reason she decided to not terminate her pregnancy, maybe it really is because she saw the sorry hackneyed version of adoption on Juno. Who knows? After all it is like a hollywood movie about risotto.
I don't even like warm risotto, but the point being. She does not want her baby. So the baby will de facto have a hard go of it. Dealing with the fact that your mother doesn't want you is an awful cross to bear. Not the only cross one can bear before someone else points that out to me, because I am frequently being accused of thinking that adoption is the only difficulty in the world because I never notice war and stuff, because I need important people on the interwebs to point those things out to me.
While you are not going to get a universal adoptee story because after all we are individuals, adoption is a risky business at best. All adult adoptees know this. Biology is as well. The difference being that a mother who makes the decision to roll the dice with adoption is withdrawing her protection. She is saying, "do what you will with my child, I bow out" which most children are cognizant of, and that is a bitch of a thing to be cognizant of.
Still it is legal to not want your child. It is legal to bear a child you intend to abandon. at least her son will make some money for someone and in this economy we can certainly use the round by round stimulation of the money this child will generate.
While being adopted can be a very painful experience, I have heard tell, compulsory parenting isn't really a viable option. While the boy will deal with being rejected, hopefully, he will be adopted by empathetic people who advocate for him. I would say this does happen a good 10% of the time. Not a real number, just one I pulled out of the air from talking to adoptees. The air being so loaded with numbers...
So this little boy has the misfortune of being conceived to a mother that has no care for him. I for one think it would be worse to be parented on an every day basis by someone who did not care for me vs. the difficulties of being adopted. They are both difficult, he doesn't have the chance that a loved from the beginning child has.
Sometimes I think women like this very much enjoy the attention of having people say, "Oh but look your child will suffer" so she can make up ways that it doesn't matter. She will do what she wants. Hopefully, her son will be able to cope.
Hopefully down the road she will be satisfied that she made a fully informed decision. Of course, I can't imagine a child being comfortable with that. Her son will have to come to terms with being a commodity like all of us adoptees do. Who really cares though, when there is always more risotto to have?
I also know a lot about time travel, I saw a movie about that too, and while I haven't time travelled myself, my theory is as valid as anyones.
Okay, so I came back to see how this was all going. Basically, joy21, i love your comment so much i want to, as they say, take it behind the middle school and get it pregnant.
ReplyDeleteseriously. better than risotto any day. and that's coming from a [fake] italian.
lol ty irrevocably adopted.
ReplyDeleteWhile I don't eat risotto, I did one time go to a restaurant and order Salade Lyonnaise that said it was served with Hobbs bacon. It was served with a mystery meat instead. I asked what the mystery meat was and the chef assured me that it was Hobbs bacon, as if I wouldn't know.
I immediately burst into tears and said, "My God does the abandonment never end! This is just like when my mother left me to the winds of fate as an infant and all the struggles I had with my identity and attempting to come to terms with it!"
I have a blog about it, it is called "Mystery Meat: A Lunch Unknown" it has plagued me since the day I left that restaurant. It claimed to be Michelin starred. Oh how I didn't know then what I know now, that Michelin stars are a corrupt system and are up for sale. :(
Geez Joy21! Bitch move. Why the hell do you all come on here to bash Lia?! Seriously, do none of you adoptees have anything better to do than troll around on other people's blogs and make them feel shitty about and already shitty situation. I understand what it is like to be adopted as I am adopted myself, and am in reunion. I will not say I think adoption is this grand amazing thing, it's not. What I will say is there are tons of adoptees which correlates to alot of different stories. Not all adoptees are bitter and go around spreading the disease of hatred. Really that is NOT the way to go about this.
ReplyDeleteIf Lia is not ready to parent and chose not to have an abortion that is her right to choose! I sincerely hate when people get all pissy when someone decides to give birth to a child and relinquishes said child instead of aborting it. That was Lia's choice to make and she should NOT be condemned because of it.
Here is a word of advice for all you angry adoptees: MOVE ON. You are devoting hours upon hours of being miserable because you were placed, abandoned, forgotten about, relinquished, thrown away...whatever you call it, but is that all your life is about?! I am by far not a happy adoptee, but I sure as hell do NOT let adoption define me or run my life. No way. I am much better than that. I have so much to offer the world and I will not let something like adoption take that away from me. Wouldn't you say it has already taken too much? Don't let it take you down too. All of you angry adoptees are letting the anger of what your natural parents did to you ruin your lives. You had no control of what your nparents did, so take back that control and use it for good. Not to harass people like Lia who are attempting to do something they feel is best. Why not try educating people(prospective aparents for example)about what it is like to be an adoptee and the issues that need to be taken into consideration and don't be assholes about it either.
I was contemplating hiding my identity, to hell with it. All of you angry adoptees know who I am anyway and most of you hate me at this point...so I am not gonna hide behind an 'anonymous' label.
How on earth did I bash Lia? Project much?
ReplyDeleteHow is it my job to educate paps? I am supporting Lia's decision. I think it is a wise one. I said I would rather not be parented by a woman who didn't care for me than given up for adoption.
What an arrogant thing to suggest that I don't have control of my own life. I do. Who are you to say I don't use my power for good? You don't even know me. As I said in my comment that enraged you so much, we are all individuals.
As for hating you? Don't flatter yourself. I don't hate you. I would have to care a lot more than I do. You and your child are going to live with the consequences of your actions. I won't.
I am not about to start taking care of paps or nmothers or anyone that I don't know and love. You can, knock yourself out.
If Lia wants a private diary, she can keep one, they make them with locks and everything. She doesn't have to make her blog public at all. Settle down turbo.
Or better yet, like you suggested, why don't you do something positive with your life for once?
@Ritehere:
ReplyDeleteI certainly don't hate you, and I know what you're going through right now. I feel for you.
It is a bit rich, though, for you to come here and call us out for being "bitter" and "angry," when you've been equally annoyed at being called those things yourself. I cannot believe that you're throwing the "move on" thing at us, either. And you're calling me and others assholes? Seriously?
For that matter, I don't think that I was attacking Lia, just drawing attention to the person whose position is conspicuously absent from most discussion here. That's the point of view I know. I clearly said that Lia must do what she must do, even though I may not agree with it.
Did you not notice that this post was about dialogue, including learning from Myst, whom I admire greatly from other circles? To suggest that I traipse off to educate APs is rather insulting. Not my job. And if you recall, Lia came to *us* in the beginning, seeking counsel from different adoptees. She has decided to place, sure, but does that mean that I must immediately stop speaking my mind?
Sorry that you're in a difficult spot, but I think you're the one that needs to learn some manners.
Post script:
ReplyDeleteAs I noted in my first comment, it is Lia's legal right to not choose to abort a child she does not want. Whether or not that is ethical is another question.
It is not a question I claim to have the answer to, but debatable.
Did you even read what I wrote before you got all butt-hurt?
Post Post Script:
ReplyDeleteI have never claimed to be anything other than a bitch. See my interminable blog for reference. Bitches make bitch moves, that is how we roll.
I don't hate Lia. I am not invested in Lia at all. I don't care what she does or who she does it to, unless she does it to me. Even then it is debatable. I have inherited my mother's profound ability of indifference.
I do care about adoptees, I do want them to be cared for and advocated for. I do sincerely hope that Lia's son is the exception to the rule and goes to an empathetic, wholesome home unlike the abusive home you have described growing-up (@ ritehere)
I am not anti-adoption and haven't been for a second of my life. Meaning no disrespect to my anti-adoption friends, just I have always believed that adoption has its place. I totally support both Lia and Ritehere's decisions to place their children. Adoption is difficult but again, being raised by a mother who has no care for her child, in my opinion, while maybe not others, would be more difficult.
I am not saying go out and educate aparents, but instead of bashing them(The Blogs of Shame on AAAFC come to mind)on their blogs for their misconstrued and one sided views on adoption maybe give them your point of view, explain how their way of thinking is wrong and move on, instead of dragging it out like you are doing here.
ReplyDeleteOh and in response to Joy21 in particular, do something with my life? Well I am, thanks for the advice.
And as for the hating bit(sorry Lia for projecting a slight bit of pent up anger on your blog, I know you won't mind), I do feel a bit judged/hated if I don't mind saying. I recall on AAAFC bashing me for my 'thinking' about placing months ago. Yea, I was just a bit butt-hurt over that, but I kind of figured in the long run it doesn't matter what people on the internet say about me and my 'thoughts' about something.
I guess it wasn't necessarily the things you said and yes you might support Lia, but saying it like this "I am supporting Lia's decision. I think it is a wise one. I said I would rather not be parented by a woman who didn't care for me than given up for adoption"...doesn't technically feel like support in my opinion. Whatever.
Lia you rock :)
Joy21...your post post script, we double posted(I apologize). That clarified things, no hard feelings...it just irritates me greatly to see all these 'angry' adoptees trolling around on blogs inflicting their adoption wounds onto others(and I am not saying that was necessarily done here at all)...it just makes me upset. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteI can understand that. Because you are looking for me to take care of you emotionally. It is all okay, it is all warm and fuzzy. I know it is hard for you, but really you are a good person baloney.
ReplyDeleteAll I want to say to you though is, "Get-off my tit you aren't my baby"
How is that for bitch?
Don't cry to me about hard times and unintended pregnancies, that dog will not hunt with me, I have been there time and again.
Oh boo-hoo you aren't being supported. Listen to the sound of me not caring.
Oh btw you rock :P and take your meds and MOVE ON, and I won't have a battle of wits with someone unarmed and a whole host of other hackneyed sayings! :)
I am not anti-adoption, either. I don't happen to like the way it has made me feel, and I am glad that I'm not the only person who feels that way, but I am not suggesting that the problem of unwanted children will go away. People are free to choose adoption, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.
ReplyDeleteAs for beleaguering Lia with rants about how she should be parenting, once again, I am NOT. I have had interaction with other commenters about whether or not infants are affected by losing their first mother. Campbell, not I, brought up the parenting thing, and I seconded her in thinking that Lia would make a good parent, if she so CHOSE.
I don't think that I slammed you for choosing to place when you informed us of your decision. I said that I found it painful to hear and that I was having problems supporting you in it, given that you have lived the life of an adoptee, and given that in the past you have expressed frustrations with that life. It sounds like you have come to peace with your adopted self now, and I am glad for you. But it is truly disingenuous to slam us as "angry." I care very deeply about adoptees, and you and Lia are about to create two more of them.
So is it better for women to make uniformed decisions?
ReplyDeleteAt least you and Lia know it can go horribly wrong for your children. At least you are informed love has nothing to do with this decision.
You are both making fully informed decisions. I would think that would be a benefit. Not for your children of course, but for you, and that is what you are concerned about, yourselves. At least you will never be able to say, "Oh I didn't know" "Oh if they only told me" which happened to me when I ordered a salad at a restaurant.
I mean that was truly horrible.
I will put taking care of you emotionally first on my list of things to do in the morning. Supporting your right to hurt a child. Yes, I will. You brave family building angel.
It will be easy for me, as everything always has been.
No hard feelings? Of course not, no feelings at all.
okay wait. i'm back.
ReplyDeletewho's ritehere? i'm on aaafc too but i'm not that good at paying attention to anything ever.
also, as katharine said, lia came to many of us first. i was minding my own damn angry adoptee business and she came into my life via my blog (god why i have one is a mystery) and started commenting and asking questions and such. therefore, she opened the lines of communication here.
for the record (and not that it matters), i'm anti-adoption. i am pro-guardianship if it needs to happen, and i think many people are assholes. i want to help adoptees but i'm way too adopted to be of any assistance, really. i'm still learning.
i can't believe people are still confused about WHY deleting a person's history is not okay or even something to be encouraged and beloved.
lol jk, i figured out who ritehere is.
ReplyDeleteWOW! I came back to just say that regardless of what I went through as a child it is NOTHING in comparison to the daily trauma of adoption as I gotto go home ot my mother eventually once they worked out what was wrong. I was lucky... and it still scarred me in some way (albeit small in comparison).
ReplyDeleteGreat comments by Joy and Katharine with some awesome points raised.
As for "hating" on Lia... no one is doing that. We are just expressing our opinion as Lia is doing. I think she knows we are not hating on her and if you are feeling attacked Lia I am not meaning to attack you but you do know how I feel about all this.
And as for labelling people "angry adoptees". Yes, I see this a lot, when adults who are adopted refuse to sit in the little boxes society wants them to sit in. I say, screw the boxes and speak up loud and clear ladies (and gents). Stop with the labelling already. You don't have to like what they say but its their life and they know how they feel so stop categorising them to make you feel better!!
"i can't believe people are still confused about WHY deleting a person's history is not okay or even something to be encouraged and beloved. "
ReplyDeleteBecause people believe that infants can bond to a substitute caregiver, so they can endure ANYTHING, and if it works out, then it's all okay.
- ML
P.S. I ain't an angry adoptee either. I'm a happy person who wishes her adoption hadn't needed to happen.